ELM: Congratulations, Wiseman Ngobese. You have been the director of the Lutheran Church Outreach Foundation in Hillbrow/Johannesburg for a good year now. How do you feel in this relevant and relatively new position?

Wiseman Ngobese: It feels great. Promoting the vision of the Outreach Foundation, making contacts for the common cause, that's the exciting thing about the job.

ELM: Can you explain the vision of the Outreach Foundation?

Wiseman Ngobese: It's about creating a sustainable Africa. That's a lot of work. But I believe that you can only eat an elephant one piece at a time. (This quote is attributed to Desmond Tutu; editor's note). We have to see what part of this great vision we can take on and fulfil. If everything that individuals and individual institutions do eventually comes together, then the vision will be realised.

ELM: The Outreach Foundation always has to adapt its services and programme to the current situation. Could you describe how this has changed in recent years?

Johan Robyn: Yes, it is important for us to constantly reflect: Are we still on the right track? Are we relevant? Are we responding to the needs of the communities? Are we training the right people? Are we giving them skills that they can use?
I think it was last year when we had an incident where our team went into a group and realised: No, that's too dangerous. We had to pull back and ask ourselves: what have we done wrong as an outreach team? It is always crucial for us to understand the communities we work with.
It is also essential to empower and support our staff so that they can develop their skills to really move the organisation forward. There are actually 50 employees doing all this work.

ELM: You are now describing how you look for and find people who need your services and that you go to the areas where these people live. Is there another way that potential participants get to know the Outreach Foundation?

Johan Robyn: Our team, especially our social workers, identify communities, but we first approach the "leaders" or "gatekeepers" and we basically ask them for permission to work with that group and explain to us what their needs are. This can be a group of mothers who come together regularly, but also a group of men or young people.

Wiseman Ngobese: We don't want to wait for people to come to us, because then we would only help those who can reach us.

ELM: I'm sure you have many success stories to tell about people who are getting through life better thanks to the services offered by the Outreach Foundation. What about you, Wiseman Ngobese, you were also a participant on a course?

Wiseman Ngobese: Yes, I was a participant in the theatre project and in the offerings for young people and then later also led them.

ELM: How old were you then?

Wiseman Ngobese: I was 17 years old. So I took part in various programmes and eventually started working for Outreach as an IT supervisor. I later switched to skills development management. And since the beginning of 2025, I've been sitting in the boss's chair. Yes, we actually have quite a few success stories. Around 80 per cent of our current employees are former participants. Many of the team leaders were previously participants themselves and our canteen is also run by former participants.

ELM: What are the most pressing problems you are currently facing? And how do you overcome these problems?

Johan Robyn (laughs and sings): "Money, money, money"

Wiseman Ngobese: Yes, but it's also something else: the hostility in the environment in which we work. There are legal requirements, for example, that you have to document your residence status when you are in another country. We are faced with the reality that people have no papers. We have to find a balance between supporting a person and avoiding illegality. You walk a fine line if you want to work within the legal framework.

Johan Robyn: We are also often confronted with the question of medical care for undocumented migrants. We have learnt to find a balance: Behind the undocumented person is a human being and we want to give them support. But we also have to follow the rules. So we remind the person of what they need to consider when they are living illegally.

ELM: Are you also confronted with hostility yourselves, or is it more the participants?

Johan Robyn: Both. We have to take that risk. I can't sit in my office and drink coffee all day. We have to face the realities around us if we want to be effective, and we face hostility too.

ELM: What is the difference between the urban and rural areas where you work? Is it more difficult in rural areas?

Wiseman Ngobese: Yes, we work in rural areas, in border towns and in urban centres. These are very different contexts. Musina, for example, is a city with many immigrants. There it is widely accepted to be an immigrant.
When we first travelled to Mpumalanga, the division between the original population and the migrants was really visible. The road separates two areas where people live. Block A and B. B is developed, A is not. Mozambicans, i.e. migrants, live there. The authorities in this area are also aware of this and do not provide services for this area, but only on the other side of the road.
We cannot simply transfer what we do in Hillbrow (a neighbourhood of Johannesburg, editor's note) to Mpumalanga. Then people would need money to come to Johannesburg after their training. We have trained 40 beauticians in Mpumalanga. 30 of them are actually working - and you might ask: who needs make-up in a rural area? But somehow they need it.

ELM: You are now also working in other countries of the Southern African Development Community (SADC)? Which ones are these and what are you doing there?

Johan Robyn: Yes, it was in 2020. We started working in Zambia, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Botswana, Swaziland and Eswatini.We started there by networking with everyone involved in migration: Police, local councillors and others. We are working with them to assess the situation in the country. We want to understand where the challenges for migrants lie and what is going wrong. But we also want to give migrants a realistic picture of their destination - South Africa: The country is not a land of milk and honey.

ELM: If there was one thing, one systematic measure that the South African government could take to facilitate your work, what would it be?

Wiseman Ngobese: That's a good question, but it's also a difficult one. I don't think I can name a single point where you could say: "If you strengthen this one area, then everything will work". There is a lack of a solid state system. Take for example the border at Musina, which is a bridge over a river. People just walk in and out, 100 metres from the official border. Or the border between South Africa and Eswatini. There's a crossing 100 metres from the actual border. And there are taxis there. So you get out of the taxi, go directly behind the border gate and you're already in Eswatini. The law enforcement system is not strong enough. It's causing the problem. The health system is not strong enough, the education system is not strong enough.

Robert Michel: And you know, even from the parliament side, for example, I tried for three years to get the subcommittee on migration to talk to us. They don't even reply to emails. They just ignore you.

Johan Robyn: I agree with Wiseman - it's not about saying: "Let's close the borders." It's about saying, "Let's fix the system."

Robert Michel: We also spoke to soldiers on the border with Zimbabwe. People are crossing the river there illegally. We asked the soldiers: What are you doing? And their answer was: But our bosses know about it. In other words: Why should we do something if our bosses are doing nothing?

Johan Robyn: It's a chain reaction. People set off with a false idea of the reality in South Africa. Once they're there, they don't go back. And the neighbour in their original home country thinks they are doing well there and perhaps sets off too. Once you're in South Africa, you stay there illegally. And even if you have a child there, that child is there illegally. For example, they can't take their final exams at school. There are many cases of people who are stateless.

Robert Michel: Many migrants believe that if they enter South Africa illegally and stay long enough, they will somehow become South Africans. But that is not the case.

ELM: Perhaps one last question: What does the partnership with the ELM mean for you? There is the financial support from the Outreach Foundation, but also the personal contact with the ELM, especially with the consultant for Southern Africa, Dr Joe Lüdemann.

Robert Michel: Yes, there is this financial support. We couldn't exist without it. But it goes far beyond that, because our relationship goes back many years. We work together as a team - and that's what makes it so great.