Meeting at eye level and trusting in God - a reflection on pastoral care practice in a diverse society

A conversation about the similarities and differences between psychosocial counselling and pastoral care with Prof. Dr Katharina Kleine Vennekate.

Prof. Dr Kleine Vennekate, you are a pastor and social pedagogue and have worked in pastoral care and as a psychosocial counsellor. Is there a common denominator?

Pastoral care and psychosocial counselling are based on the principles of person-centred counselling by Carl Rogers with the three important basic attitudes of the counsellor, namely empathy, authenticity and unconditional appreciation. These basic attitudes are realised through the conversation technique of active listening. In addition, all forms of counselling require the knowledge and ability to understand and deal with body language.

Who was Carl Rogers?

He was a psychologist and psychotherapist, but had also studied theology. In the 1940s, Carl Rogers developed his concept of person-centred counselling, which soon spread throughout Europe and subsequently found its way into the pastoral care concepts and practices of churches.

What different forms of counselling are there?

The spectrum of counselling forms is broad. Probably the best-known form of counselling is the individual conversation about personal life problems, which is referred to as psychosocial counselling because it perceives psychological problems in the social context of people. Psychoanalysis has also influenced this form of counselling. Classical pastoral care can be located in the area of this form of counselling.

However, people are also very strongly influenced by the systems in which they live. This is why systemic therapy, such as family therapy, was developed, and it is precisely the systemic approach to therapy that has opened the door to forms of counselling in institutions, such as school social work, school psychology, hospital chaplaincy or prison chaplaincy. Systemic forms of counselling are used in the world of work, e.g. as coaching, supervision and conflict moderation.

How does pastoral care differ from all these fields of counselling?

Pastoral counselling focuses on the spiritual dimension of human life. Pastoral care brings with it special competences to reflect on questions of meaning together with those seeking advice. The Christian understanding of counselling provides information about the image of humanity and the basic prerequisites on which the counselling conversation is based.

The basis of counselling lies in God's unavailable act of salvation and his love for people. The adjective "Christian" refers to this act of salvation and to the fact that the counsellor refers to this in his or her actions. And it provides information about the goal of pastoral care: to promote and protect the dignity of people as people loved and affirmed by God.

What would such an offer of Christian pastoral care look like for you in concrete terms?

I would like to answer this question using the story of blind Bartimaeus in Mark 10. In this story, Jesus acts as a counsellor in three ways:

1. Quite near the end of the story, Jesus asks Bartimaeus, "What do you want me to do for you? With this question, Jesus makes it clear that he is leaving the decision about his life up to Bartimaeus. Jesus wants to hear from Bartimaeus himself how his life should be changed. It is not Jesus who decides what to do, but the person concerned. This must be the basic attitude in pastoral care.

2 Jesus sees Bartimaeus and listens to him. This is in contrast to the behaviour of the other people waiting for Jesus on the street. They hear Bartimaeus calling but they rebuke him. He should not disturb them. That is why they reject him. But Jesus sees and hears him. Jesus then commits the other people: "Bring him to me". In doing so, Jesus not only changes Bartimaeus' life, but also challenges the community to take a different perspective on the person seeking help. Christian pastoral care is not just individual help, but affects and changes the community. That is why it is also embedded in the community.

3 The third aspect of the story is empowerment. The moment Jesus looks at Bartimaeus and speaks to him, something happens to him. He throws off his cloak. This cloak is an expression of the protection that a person in a vulnerable situation needs. Christian counselling should give people the impetus to become active themselves and to throw off their protective mechanisms, which are also burdensome and restrictive, and take their lives into their own hands.

So in terms of approach, it doesn't really matter who is sitting in front of you, whether a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whoever?

Since the basic premise of Christian pastoral care is God's unconditional love for people and Jesus gave his help to all people, the basis for interreligious or intercultural pastoral care is rooted in the actions of Jesus himself. It is applied wherever people with different ideological convictions meet, find themselves in crisis situations and are therefore also looking for the spiritual dimension of their lives. I see religious, ideological and cultural diversity as an enrichment. At the same time, interreligious pastoral care has its own particular challenges. It confronts us with our own feelings, fears and ways of dealing with things when we encounter someone or something that is foreign to us. The challenges of interreligious and intercultural pastoral care include meeting each other in our foreignness, accepting and appreciating ambiguity and difference and opening up a common space for dialogue. I gave a lecture on this topic at the last symposium at the University of Applied Sciences for Intercultural Theology in June 2025. This symposium on intercultural theology was organised by active and former professors and reflects the theological heritage of the FIT. My contribution entitled "Encountering each other as strangers - Intercultural pastoral care in the context of flight and migration" and those of my colleagues will soon be published in an anthology by Peter Lang Verlag.

Where else in the Bible are there passages that you consider relevant for pastoral care?

One of my favourite stories is that of the battle at the Jabbok (Genesis 32:23-33). It tells us what it means when guilt affects a person. This is the case with the brothers Jacob and Esau. Jacob knows this, and he wrestles with his guilt and the past the night before he meets his brother. And then he is injured in the hip. For me, this is an expression of the fact that reconciliation is only possible when one's own vulnerability is felt and one can approach one another in this awareness.

I have already used this biblical story in counselling with people who had access to the Bible and where the question was how reconciliation is possible.

Do you believe that you can support people better by including the Bible than with a secular approach?

There are things in the Bible that have perhaps not yet been recognised for counselling work. But who wants to judge that in the end? For people who are looking for a spiritual dimension, the biblical message is "more", as the transcendent perspective on their lives is helpful. And for me as a counsellor, I can also say that there is added value, because I can "hand over" what I hear and experience - and I have counselled really difficult cases - to a certain extent in prayer. In prayer, I realise that many things are beyond my control and I can entrust the difficult things to God.
There are also scientific studies that identify a benefit of spiritual care. People have a spiritual dimension within them. People experience this spiritual dimension as a search for the meaning of life, for orientation and for a positive response, such as the statement: "You are loved, you are wanted, you have a mission here". This Christian answer is one answer among many and can be of great help to people.

Can you make this a little more specific from your wealth of experience? What happens to people or can happen in a counselling process?

Counselling works on different levels. If someone comes to counselling because they can't cope with the problem on their own, then the problem is discussed on a factual level. This broadens your own perspective and your own horizon of understanding. Stress is also relieved on an emotional level because the dialogue changes the way the whole situation is assessed. This results in more possible solutions because the person recognises more options for action. I always find it interesting that when dealing with a problem, a lot depends on a person's inner attitude, whether they are able to see their problem with different eyes, strive for different solutions and then have the confidence to take the steps to solve the problem. A person's emotions play a central role here.

It often helps if the person perceives their problem in a different light and no longer feels helpless. For example, they can see what small steps they can take themselves. Making self-efficacy tangible is very important. This promotes the positive resources that a person already has within them to solve problems.

Do you ever get the feeling that things are stalling? You're not getting anywhere with the person you're there for as a counsellor?

There are definitely cases like that. I am not a psychiatrist, nor am I a psychotherapist. In such cases, I have to refer people to the right organisations. I've taken people to the psychiatric ward myself twice because I said that this is something that is too critical. I can no longer take responsibility for that. It's important to know what help this person needs now.

I would like to come back to the area of intercultural counselling that you mentioned. That is one of your specialisms. Let's assume you are counselling a Muslim or a Muslim woman. You use exactly the methods you described. Active listening, empathy, you bring in your faith background rather passively. Don't you sometimes experience ways of thinking that you can't understand? Or can that also happen when you talk to people from your own culture and faith, because people are simply so different?

That's absolutely right. The experience of not being able to understand people does not primarily depend on religion or a different culture. People from your own culture can also seem incomprehensible. Nevertheless, it can be said that people from other cultures tend to feel alienated or incomprehensible more often. However, I tend to look at the similarities rather than the differences. Because I have one very big thing in common with people of other faiths, namely that we believe in a God, in a superhuman power, and that this belief also helps us in crisis situations. We practise prayers and rituals, albeit with different content and in different forms.

In my counselling practice, I said when I introduced myself that I am a pastor and a social pedagogue. So far, I have never had anyone in counselling say that it bothers them that I am a representative of a different faith. I have counselled a lot of women from a Muslim context and have received feedback that it was important for the women that a woman was counselling them and that I, as a counsellor, also have experience with questions of faith.

For example, I remember a young woman who wanted to separate from her husband. The rest of our conversation centred on how a divorce is carried out in a Muslim context. The family requested that an uncle should have a conversation about the marriage and thus contribute to the preservation of the marriage. I then explained to the client how the divorce process works in Germany and that it is often very helpful to seek counselling from an uninvolved person in the event of a divorce. This enables people to find out better for themselves what the right path is. For the young woman, the decision to divorce was a difficult step because she knew that the moment she divorced her husband and did not return to her family of origin, she would be isolated from her family for the time being. Nevertheless, she decided to take this path.

I have often reflected with Muslim clients on the extent to which the behaviour demanded by the family or community is really based on the message of the Koran or whether it is not more a question of cultural traditions. Does the Koran say anything about the person's problem and what does the inner voice of their own faith say about the problem? Sometimes we also prayed together. Everyone used their own form of prayer. In these moments, we tended to feel what we had in common and, despite all the differences in our beliefs, we became closer because we were able to trust the divine power in our lives. For me, such moments of sharing together are encounters at eye level.

Mrs Kleine Vennekate, thank you very much for the interview.

 

Prof. Dr Katharina Kleine Vennekate is a theologian and social pedagogue, trauma counsellor and coach. She has worked as a pastor and psychosocial counsellor with students and refugees, among others. At the Hermannsburg University of Applied Sciences for Intercultural Theology, she taught practical theology with a focus on diaconia from an intercultural perspective.